Irresponsible Rumormongering

Thoughts on the Jimmy Vesey and Jacob Trouba rumors

Yesterday a pair of rumors broke, and it was probably the worst timing because of course I was out all day and couldn’t sit and write about it. But hey, it gives me Sunday content, right?

In case you missed it, Elliotte Friedman mentioned that the Buffalo Sabres are big on Jimmy Vesey and are calling the Rangers about their winger. Larry Brooks also noted that the Jacob Trouba sweepstakes are heating up between the Rangers, Devils, and Islanders.

1. Let’s start with Trouba, since that’s going to be the one that has a lot of folks up in arms. Brooks mentioned that the sweepstakes are heating up, and it may cost the Rangers the #20 pick, RFA Pavel Buchnevich, and last year’s first round pick Nils Lundkvist. Suffice it to say, that’s a lot and it may not even be enough.

2. If that’s the cost for Trouba, it’s a hard pass from me. I get that Jeff Gorton wants to accelerate the rebuild, but that’s not the way to do it. Plus, Colin Miller is arguably better and will be significantly cheaper. Gorton will need to be shrewd and calculating to accelerate the rebuild, not fall for big names with big prices. That kind of deal doesn’t move the Rangers forward, even with Artemi Panarin.

3. The more I look at it, the more I want to pass on Trouba. There. I said it.

4. On to Vesey, whom the Sabres are rumored to be heavily interested in. We’ve been talking a lot about how the Rangers need to dump some middle/bottom-six guys, and Vesey was one of the targets to unload. That’s not to say Vesey isn’t useful, since he’s a 15-20 goal scorer who provides tertiary scoring on the bottom-six. That said, he’s getting expensive –$2.275 million this year and due a RFA raise next season– and he doesn’t do much else, especially away from the puck. These are the kinds of mistakes you look to avoid. It’s about getting value from your bottom-six, not overpaying to keep players around.

5. As for price from Buffalo, I really don’t know what they can offer from their roster. Vesey won’t get much in terms of prospects or picks, maybe next year’s 2nd rounder? This year’s 3rd? That’s really all I can see Buffalo offering for a bottom-six winger. Then again, Buffalo gonna Buffalo, so I wouldn’t be shocked if they did Sam Reinhart straight up (I’m being facetious).

6. Maybe there’s a trade up scenario here with Alex Georgiev. Are Vesey and Georgiev enough to get the #31 outright? Likely not. The Sabres don’t have their 2nd rounder this year so that complicates things. This also assumes they aren’t sold on Carter Hutton, whom they just acquired from St. Louis last year. There’s certainly a trade to be made here, but I wonder if it’s just a low-key roster clearing move for the Rangers. That’s fine by me, since the Rangers need to clear up bottom-six space for cheaper and more skilled players anyway. In most roster projections, Vesey is barely on the fourth line.

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  • Right on the money Dave………….
    Trouba will be expensive in the terms of what (the #20 pick) and who, one roster player and one prospect.. That puts me firmly in the ‘I pass group’. Especially if he is traded to a team without extending. Then he hits the open market for nothing other then Dolan’s money. Unless we can steal him, and that is EXTREMELY unlikely, I pass.
    Remember, we still do not know what we already have in our young D-men. We may have the next Trouba already in our ever increasing and impressive stable.

    If the return is reasonable, I don’t have any problem watching Vesey play hockey wearing another Jersey.

  • not saying I would do the Trouba deal exactly as presented by brooks but I don’t see why the crowd is so uptight about trading lias or buch in a trade for what the org identifies as a top pair d man… which as of 6.16.19 nyr have none of.

    like buch .. 42 point , 136 sog season highs. kakko/kravtsov pan out buch is our 3rd line rw.

    lias … not gonna open that pandoras box rn, no energy.

    if the rest of the deal were right I wouldn’t let either hold it up. cant keep everyone (including our now bevy of prospects) for ever.

  • Trouba has all 30 teams after him….he’s 25 ….I like Buch but I would def do that deal … say Colin Miller is better is foolish. Trading your best goalie with Vesey for the 31 should get a GM fired. Trading a player who will at least give you 15-20 goals for a pick is not worth it. I have no problem dealing him but it would have to be a bigger deal

    • Mikey,
      Here lies the problem…..
      With the addition of Kravtsov, Kakko, and possibly others, there is no place for Vesey on the first 3 lines. So, do you hold on to him to play 4th line minutes, or do you unload him at his highest value.
      The Rangers were able to get Vesey for nothing, so anything they get back is a bonus. I would take a second round pick next year in a heart beat and the saving of his 2 plus million salary can go towards courting Panarin.

        • At what price do you pay for a 4th liner who just chips in goals? He’s mildly overpaid now, looking for more.

          Guys like him you get for a 2nd tier prospect or a 3rd at the trade deadline, or give up a late 1st for a much better version as a rental if you’re all in.

  • agree with all of the above. Especially with Trouba. Giving all that up could arguably set back the rebuild. I was wondering though is there a 3 way trade to be made with us, Buffalo and Winnipeg? Between Trouba, Vesey, pick #20 pick #30, Buffalo allegedly shopping Ristolainen and who knows what else. Elhers name popped up in trade rumors this weekend. There’s a lot of smoke.

    Buffalo had previously given up a 3rd rounder just to talk to Vesey before he signed with us. They covet him and may over pay.

    • Where do you realistically see Lias? can we not find a 4th line player anywhere? Do you want Trouba a 6’3″ 225 mobile physical PMD or small Nils?. Does DQ want Buch?

      • I see Lias as a 3C. Nils is 5’11” and keep hearing how guys that size can’t win. Better let Patrick Kane know that..he’s only won 3 cups. The way Buch ended the season he could push 30 goals. And being on an RFA his contract should also be good value. You also forgot to mention the #20 pick. I would hate to draft Seider, Harley, Kaliyev, Dorofeyev. Lavoie .. etc etc.

        As for salary cap concerns he’s going to probably get closer to $8 mill based on all the demand we’re reading about. And we have the space. But remember he’s a UFA after this season and he’s currently an unsigned RFA with arbitration rights. and his agent has not been allowed to talk to other teams. Also remember if you give up pick #20 and Nils and Buch you are giving up 2 to 3 ELC years in the case of pick #20 and with Nils and 2 RFA years with Buch and one ELC year and a few RFA years of Andersson. Also selling on Andersson at low valuation. Those ELC and RFA years matter.

        Trouba checks a lot of boxes. No doubt about it. Right age, big, right shot, mobile and a max contract would work. But is the give up worth it? In my opinion no..

        • If Lias doesnt improve his skating he will not be in the NHL…..Kane was the #1 overall pick in his draft…Nils also plays D where you have to clrear the front of the net and go battle in the corners….and some draft guys had Nils in the 70’s. The 20 is 50/50 panning out….Buch is Buch…Trouba is not coming here for free and we are bringing in 2 to 3 forwards next season

          • Lias and #20 is one thing. Lias, #20, Buch and Nils is something completely different. Depth wins cups more than one single player wins cups.

          • You could get Trouba for free in 2 years.

            Why would you want to give up essentialy 2 first round draft picks for Trouba when you could get him for free in 2 years.. It’s not like we’re the front runners to win it all next year.. It’s madness to even contimplate this deal.

          • How many times do these big free agents-to-be actually make it to free agency. Not often.

          • I don’t think that’s true. The chances of Trouba signing a long term contract with his next team is almost 100%, IMO.

      • I see Lias as trade bait.

        Without a giant jump in play he’s not a top 6 F
        Howden gonnna be the 3C, cheaper options at 4C once he comes off the ELC.

        With the expansion draft looming, Lias looks like the #8 on any protected list: hence trade bait.

  • Vesey to Buffalo for their 2nd rounder next year and let’s be done with this … and NO Dave, they can’t have Georgiev and I’m surprised at how casually you throw him in just to get the last pick in the 1st round. We have a young bird in hand here and personally I’m not interested in trading him for one in the bush — it’s a good bush mind you, but nothing that makes me want to trade a known young quantity.

    Re: Trouba, welcome to the club Dave. I think he’s a real good player, but over hyped — I could see going as high as their 1st and Lias or their 1st and Nils, but anything more (unless we’re talking a 3rd round pick or some B prospect). Trouba would solidify our Right side for years to come … but unless you plan to get rid of DeAngelo, Shattenkirk and Pionk have you just blocked Fox and locked him into the 3rd RD spot? Is that what we just moved two 2nd rounders for? A 3rd pairing guy?

  • If JG pays what Brooks is suggesting, he should be fired for managerial malpractice!

    Trouba controls who he goes to and the size of the return the Jets will get. If he signs before a trade then the Jets should get an A level prospect and perhaps a first round pick or a former first round pick. If he goes without conditions, the most he is worth is a B level prospect and a 2nd or a late first round pick stand alone.

    I don’t think Trouba is worth the price being discussed. Not even close. He has not played well in the playoffs the last two years and only this, his 6th season has he finally put up the points many expected of him when he was drafted. It also happened during a contract year. That to me is very questionable.

    As for Vesey, I am ok trading him for a 2nd round pick next year or him plus our 49th for the Sabers 31.

    • I really am alone on this (Trouba), aren’t I? lol

      Trouba is not over hyped but no way I give the package that Brooks said.

        • This isn’t a binary choice.

          Nobody is happy with right side options right now. In all likelihood, moving Skjei over to his off hand might be an optimal solution(look at what it did for the production of Klein & Holden.)

          Does giving up package X for Trouba make you better short or long term?

          How does getting Trouba get Shatty moved?

          • Trouba is entering his prime now so he makes the Rangers today, tomorrow, and 5 years from now.

        • Not really pal, they just do not see Trouba as the upgrade that warrants the trading of assets.

          My trade proposal: #20, Andersson, Pionk or Nils (if we have to):

          #20: As much as I do not want to trade the pick, picking at 20 is far from a “sure thing” in getting an NHL player.
          Andersson: Honestly, I want to like Lias a lot, but I do not see the “talent” in him like I see it in Chytil. He’s expendable IMO.
          Pionk or Nils: We have more than enough D depth to offset this part of the trade, especially if we get our true #1 D man.

    • Or Nils and the 20th turn out to be excellent players. There are lots of good forwards available this year where the Rangers pick. Nils was very impressive in the WJC this year and had a really good year in the SEL as an 18 year old.

      On Lias , I have not been impressed by him in a any game I have seen him play other the the first pre season game last year. The kid can’t skate and has no lateral quickness to speak of. He also has average hockey sense. His biggest asset is his competitive nature. That’s just not enough to be a good NHL player.

        • LOL ! I agree with you there but Clark has a large anchor on him in the form of JD from making foolish picks this year. No guarantee but Clark is working for his job this draft .

          I would do Trouba for Lias, a 2nd this year and a 3rd next year

          • You’re dreaming, JD won’t be making the PICKS at the draft … that’s Gorton in conjunction with Gordie.

          • Yeah. his blessing to Gorton so Gorton can do whatever he wants for the most part. Presidents don’t get overly involved in drafting specific players — they leave that to the people who have actually watched these kids play.

          • As long as its not Gordie with the final call ….like it has been….Gotta be who JG wants

          • It’s always been Gorton’s call except perhaps going back when they were both somewhat equals in the organization — that all changed when Gorton became GM … but if you think he won’t rely to some extent on what Gordie tells him, you would be wrong — especially after the 1st round. GMs, Presidents, etc. don’t have the time to go out and scout players who aren’t at least 1st/early 2nd round candidates, not enough time in the day. They go to the major tournaments but they aren’t really scouting SHL, KHL, etc. games … although video helps a lot these days.

          • That means NOTHING, nada, zilch … Sometimes they let the President of an organization make the 1st pick, it isn’t that the President picked the player. That’s just show, an acknowledgement by the organization to that particular person, has nothing to do with who made the pick.

      • There are some talented Dmen that could be available in the 20th. spot at this year’s draft. It’s not far fetch that’s the Ranger could use that pick and acquire a very good young blueliner.

        Vesey would be a good fit in Buffalo as he would likely get more ice time. So it’s makes sense that Sabers have an interest in him. Just not sure if they are willing to part with their second draft pick. Vesey would worth at least that if the Rangers wait until next year’s trade deadline to move him.

          • That’s is true Brent Burns is a hybrid much the same as Byfuglien. Big Buff was draft 245 overall which goes to show that a club can build a formidable Blue line through the draft.

  • #4 “are the kinds of mistakes you look to avoid. It’s about getting value from your bottom-six, not overpaying to keep players around.”

    Agreed. Can plug Fogarty in for Vesey and maybe get better.

    Waiting on baited breath for the discussion on Fast. Bottom 6 guy, soon to be a UFA, can afford him a few years more at $2mm but it looks to be another Hagelin situation.

    • I’ve always been a huge supporter of Quickie, although disappointed a bit that he didn’t develop a bit more offensively. That said, it’s time to make a decision on him — either he’s kept to mentor kids on the right way to play or he’s got to go. If he’s asking Hagelin money, sayonara. Package him to make a good deal great — he has a lot of value throughout the League for everything he does, aside from racking up points which he doesn’t. 😉

      • 99 out of 100 players don’t develop offensively. The skill doesn’t get better unless they were poorly trained and are raw specimens(Riley Hughes as an example)

        What does change is they get taller, fill out or get taller *and* fill out. That allows them to express their skill.

    • Not sure how to take Hagelin’s new deal ($4x$2.75) until I see how the deal is packaged, but if he’s the comp for Fast, I can *almost* live with it.

  • I want no part of chasing Trouba for what is now getting to be a just plain silly package.

    Like Tanto said it is stupid season.

    The Rangers have sooo many D-men coming into camp it’s crazy. Some need to go – I get that. But let’s see what we got before we start chasing other guys

    Risto – he of the minus 55? No thank you.

    Vesey – I am all in on getting something for him.

    • I’m less adverse to Risto than Trouba, Trouba will cost an arm and a leg … Risto is probably costing a hand. He’s consistently put up 40+ points year after year and his +/- is more a function of Sabre goaltending and Sabre overall play. That said we’re still in this conundrum on the right side, where does getting a player like Trouba or Risto leave Adam Fox? We didn’t just pay two 2nd rounders for a 3rd pairing d’man (behind Trouba/Risto, DeAngelo). If we were to trade for either it would necessitate other moves. Vesey, Pionk and the #20 for Risto and a 3rd round pick.

      • Risto is a complete train wreck when he plays more that 18 minutes per game, that’s a statistical fact.

        You want a D man that cannot play 18 minutes? No thanks, I would rather stick with what we have.

  • I repeat myself, I know, but the Rangers have so many defensemen on the roster or in the wings that paying that much for Trouba makes little sense to me. The real need they have is for forwards, which is another reason you don’t trade Buchnevich. I pas on the Trouba deal.

    On Vesey the only reason to trade him is because he will need to be paid too much. There is no reason at this time to trade Georgiev. Let’s see what the Russian kid has and what Hank has left before trading Georgiev.

  • “That’s not to say Vesey isn’t useful, since he’s a 15-20 goal scorer who provides tertiary scoring on the bottom-six.”

    Did I miss a season where Vesey scored 20 goals?

    He’s been on pace for 20+ goals every year, but Vesey Vesey’s himself.

    Jimmy Vesey is a 12-17 goal scorer.

    • The guy scored 16, 17 and 17 … he’s averaged 17 goals a year so where the hell do you come up 12? Besides he’s a lot closer to 20 than 12, but for the sake of peace let’s just say 15-19, that’s 17+/-2.

  • This was my response to Swarty earlier this morning about my feelings :

    Now that was a thinking man’s post you put out my friend.

    Why the hell do we want to give away the store, and then continue to pay thru the nose for Trouba when the world know’s his wife, being a doctor wants to be here for what I believe to be her residency.

    In any case she wants here, he can push for a trade here, and he has the Jets management by the short hairs. What team will give them whatever they want, and not be able to resign Trouba? There aren’t that many Sathers out there who gave away 2 #1 picks for a guy who would only play for us, MSL. History can’t repeat itself with Jake, wait out the season, then sign him for nothing but money, no that’s too damn simple.

    Even with Jake, it’s going to take time for us to really be world beaters, so why rush it, wait one more season, and then make your move…………………………………

    As for Vesey, I read that Buffalo was talking about Mc Cabe as a fall back deal if the one for Jake fell thru. Look, that sounds like a fair deal, a stay at home, hard nosed d-man who will protect his younger team mates, and at about the same cost, if not less. We are in dire need of some gonads on the blue line, with all the softies back there, other than ADA, and looking at the Cup finals, that’s what won it for the Blues. We have skill to spare, now we need some sandpaper. I know the naysayers are going to tell me the game has changed, we don’t need goons, Mc Cabe isn’t a good, and the game is still rough. Guys like hit him with your purse Hayes get pushed around, collapse like a cheap suit when things get physical, and become magician and disappear with the going gets tough. We need some snarl, a few good marines back there to defend. Just my two cents here!!!!!!!!

  • I want Trouba because he is the real deal…and I dont want to go into the season with Shattenkirk and Pionk

    • There are going to be plenty of teams trying to get him, and some of them have more attractive assets to offer in a trade than we do (Philadelphia’s one of them). I’d like to see him here, but the problem is that he and Winnipeg have all the leverage. I just don’t know if we can match the offers and percs the other teams can.

      • Joe… I disagree about the leverage. If Trouba and his physician wife really want Manhattan, as is rumored, then the Rangers have leverage too. Trouba’s Agent can negotiate his brains out with all 30 teams but if he ain’t going, well that’s that.

        And because of that Gorton doesn’t have to offer Winnipeg an arm and leg, but he does have to offer a mega contract to Trouba.

    • What do you win nothing because this team isn’t ready. Things are still being evaluated but you want the shiny new toy on the shelve. See this thinking has brought the team one Cup since 1940. Trouba isn’t a Superstar who can take this team to the promiseland.

  • Hi all, the things I look at and consider with Trouba:

    1) He has the size r/h shot would anchor the 1st line pairing.

    2) He is 25, how many times have the Rangers gotten a player in the prime of his career? Also, look at the recent cup winner, look at the size of that team, Trouba would make life a lot easier for lundqvist/georgiev and maybe even igor.

    3) If the Rangers land him, he immediately becomes part of the core group of players, meaning he increases our chances of competing in a year or two.

    4) Money wise, Trouba (7-7.5 mllion) compared to Panarin (10-11 millon) a season, this might sound dumb but trading for Trouba gives the Rangers a chance to further put together a contending team.

    5) Shattenkirk will be gone, Smith might be gone too, and Staal, so the Rangers defense needs a good leader for now, Trouba fills that role.

    6) Like i mentioned before size: Trouba, Mika, Kreider, Kakko (if we draft him) Lindren (def, sp)? along with a few more bigger bodies make the rangers a tougher team to play against. Come trade deadline, lets say the rangers are fighting for a playoff spot, JD and JG will assess the team’s needs and perhaps give the rangers the last or two last pieces to make the playoffs and who knows maybe even contend sooner that we think.

    7) We will all b*tch and moan and complain when Panarin is 34 yrs old and hurt and cost us so much money, why did we spend on him, etc. Trouba will be entering half the length of his contract when he is 30. So the rangers just reduced their long term risk factor. Besides the team will be relatively young, adding to the youth, should only help.

    8) Panarin eats up half of the Rangers money they can use to sign players, Trouba, lets say colin miller, reaves and 3th and 4th line players make the team better and provides depth.

    9) Oh yeah and when Kakko or Hughes will ask for a raise and we are close to the cap, we will be forced to trade players.

    10) Vesey is not a super player nor a 30 goal scorer, we can easily replace him and pionk is not the best def, andersson as well, so those players plus a 2nd pick 3rd pick should land trouba.

    11) Our PP has been awful for years, Trouba can improve the PP even if its by 10%, until we get more scoring power, etc.

    12) If Caps and Blues can win the cup with the right trades, signings, etc, why cant the Rangers win the cup? JD drafted those players in St. Louis, he wants to win here, with Trouba and company rangers take the steps to winning the cup.

    13) Rangers have 19 million in cap space, and Kreider needs to be resigned as well. Panarin again eats up the rangers spending options. I look at it from the pov that a team uses 19 milion to sign a few players and make some trades, not spend almost all on one player.

    • … and Fox is relegated to a 3rd pairing for X years … or DeAngelo, or we trade one of them …

      No, I think the right side is already set and became so when we traded for Fox.

  • You make your team better every chance you get….none of this BS we are not gonna be ready for 2 or 3 years so we shouldnt do this or that. We have had 5 1st rd picks last 2 drafts. 1 more Friday and prob at least 2 next June….Thats 8 1’s over 4 drafts…so you can trade a prospect…Its being done the right way. We are not a bottom feeding team…we are a team that can use a couple of studs and we become a dangerous team.

    • You’re dreaming if you think with Trouba this team contents for a Cup. That’s the objective winning a Cup.

      • Maybe it doesn’t but it puts the Rangers much further in that direction than they are now.

        Playing all drafted players/young players has never won any NHL a Cup in the history of the NHL. That’s a fact.

        So just thinking that we can draft our way to a Cup is factually incorrect. Teams have always needed to add players from the outside to put them over the top. And consistently drafting 15 or so doesn’t do it either.

        We were very lucky to be getting a franchise player this year. Kakko will be in the top 6 starting the season, so it is safe to assume that starting to add pieces from the outside, starting now, is the right time. Let’s say we get Trouba and not Panarin, then:

        Lemiuex-Howden-Fast (Andersson traded for Trouba)

        Staal (ugh)-Fox

        To me, that is a very possible playoff team. There’s no team in the Metro this team couldn’t beat, IMO.

        • Im sorry, any team that has Marc Staal as a regular on defense, IMO, is NOT a “very possible playoff team!” You also are putting an awful lot of faith in Hajek and DeAngelo—we don’t even know what either of them really are yet—especially Hajek who we have barely seen. And your forward lines strike me as one of the softest group in the history of the franchise. And again, you’re putting an awful lot of faith in rookies like Kakko and Kratsev as well as 2nd yr guys like Chytil and Howden. Who knows if these guys are ready for the Show yet….Kakko and Kravtsev and the others are babies!. A possible playoff team?—you need to slow your roll a bit!

          • Lol, I understand the skepticism Mickey.

            But here’s the thing, you look around the league and there is so much parity that any team can win it in any year. The bottom line is the regular season is meaningless, just make the playoffs and see what happens.

            STL has nice players, they do have a good D corps, which obviously matters, and their goalie played extremely well, but they are not nearly as talented as some other teams. But they have players that play “playoff” hockey.

            TB doesn’t get it. They are LOADED with talent, but so what? Teams “punch them in the nose” in the playoffs and they can’t handle it, so they get knocked out early after getting the 4th highest pt total in NHL history. It means nothing.

            Point is, just make the playoffs and anything can happen in a 7 game series. We have very good goalies, it could happen, even with Staal in the line up, as a 3rd pair D man.

          • I think you’re dreaming. I thought the idea of the rebuild was to get a team that could eventually challenge for the cup every year; not just a team that could sneak into the Playoffs..and if all the cards fall the right way…maybe….anything can happen..yadda…yadda…yadda! We’ve been down that road……

          • Why does a lot of fans assume that building through the draft brings a Cup?

            I’m not getting that line of thinking. At some point, they will start adding from the outside.

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